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Post by rustyranger on Apr 22, 2016 20:42:06 GMT -5
So hopefully you guys can shine some light on this ip. I was told this pump should draw its own fuel, but it's not? I'm running a fuel line directly from a fuel tank to ip and return back into tank, no air bubbles coming from return line when I use a aux fuel pump to run the truck temporarily to find the problem. What could cause it to not pull fuel? No air or fuel leaks happening.
Also, I have a high rpm miss that acts so bad as it seems like a rev limiter and throws with smoke. Is the pump not getting enough fuel? I'm running a 35gph 4-7psi pump on it now just to get it running. I've pulled the injectors and pop tested them =all were in spec at 1900-2000. Truck starts up fine and run good till about half throttle and starts to pop and spit. No coolant burning or head issues
I guess im gettin to the point where I need to pull the ip pump off and have it rebuilt?
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Post by rustytruck on Apr 22, 2016 20:56:33 GMT -5
Where in the line did you put the electric fuel pump? If under the engine bay, you might first want to try moving it to the rear, just after the tank to see if the whole fuel system will hold pressure. If there is a tiny air leak at the top of the water fuel separator that might pull air without leaking.
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Post by wayne83 on Apr 22, 2016 21:16:01 GMT -5
Also check the fuel heater to make sure it's not plugged up. On my truck I thought the ip was bad and needed a rebuild as well because I couldn't get it to suck fuel from a 5 gallon can sitting on the ground. I as well put a Mr gasket diesel electric pump on it then and then I was able to get fuel coming out of the fuel filter, but it still didn't seem like it was a whole lot of fuel for being forced in by the electric pump. I then checked the fuel heater as it is the only thing between the ip and fuel filter and low and behold it was so plugged up I could barley even get a trickle of air to blow through it. So I then bypassed the heater and went from the ip to the fuel filter and immiedatly when I cranked the engine it was already pumping fuel out the fuel filter at a surprisingly fast rate. So not saying it's your problem, but I would check it for sure. I was about to replace/rebuild my ip but after removing the heater the pump worked great
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 22, 2016 22:03:46 GMT -5
Thanks for your input. it's only got about 4 foot of hose with electric pump supplying the injection pump just to trouble shoot for now. And not getting any air bubbles into or out of the pump. I would think it would be an internal seal issue?
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Post by fatguppy on Apr 22, 2016 22:36:49 GMT -5
We need more info.....
How many miles are on the IP? Have you adjusted or monkey'd with the IP at ALL? Is this a daily driver or project truck running again after years of sitting? Are you pumping fuel from the tank thru a filter then into the IP? Have you adjusted the valves lately? Broken valve spring(s) perhaps? Have you checked pump injection timing? What's "high RPM?" Do you have an actual tachometer reading where it starts missing? Are the fuel lines hooked up properly? Is the vent line from the valve cover free and clear? What fuel are you running? #1, #2, Kerosene, Jet A?
The lift pumps that are built into the IP have been known to fail, but it's not common. The internal lift pump vanes will stick from non-use/poor fuel/water in fuel/etc. I've had them fail, but it was a high mileage IP that just slowly stopped pulling in fuel. Didn't fail overnight.
The trouble shooting list isn't endless, but you should really check other things before just pulling the IP and having it rebuilt. A good rebuild will set you back $500+. A quick gasket/o'ring kit isn't going to cut it here. It could be something simple, maybe not.
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 22, 2016 23:08:50 GMT -5
It's a project that's been sitting for 10 years before I got it. Dash says 40k but I'm sure this truck has well over 200k on it. starts right up 1 revolution in cold. Idles perfect just won't hit Max rpm. Something up with the pump. Just not sure what. I gave it a higher ghp pump today(35gph) with a filer as aposed to 15gph that I put on after I found it wasn't pulling fuel before, just to see how it acted and it would rev higher than it did before with the bigger pump (probly 500-800 rpm more. Running regular onroad fuel with diesel clean, No I don't have a tach on truck, probably around 3000-3200 rpm is where it'll spit and sputter, even lower with a load on it. Sounds like the internal pump is shot from sitting so long and just allowing fuel to free flow? I plan on pulling the ip tomorrow if I have too
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Post by fatguppy on Apr 24, 2016 8:20:20 GMT -5
Ok. This is better info to work with. I always enjoy troubleshooting cause it's like solving a mystery! 10 years is a long time to sit! That's not good! Pumps do wear out, it's very likely it's just worn out. The internal tolerances are so small and precise. Always cracks me up when people think that they can take one apart and then "rebuild" it to working conditions! The consumer just doesn't have access to equipment that can measure tolerances that precise. Take it to a GOOD shop. Not your local auto wrench. A pump shop.
There are some q's you didn't answer....and now I have more! How come it was parked in the first place? Did you drain the fuel and replace with new before trying to start for the first time? Did you change the original filter before trying to start it for the first time? (Filters disintegrate over time, sending little pieces of media into the pump to block passages) Have you changed the air filter or checked for blockage in the intake? (Mice commonly use this area for nests!) Have you been starting it with starter fluid/glow plugs or nothing? You really need a tach reading here! At the very least get a cheap one that uses a small magnet stuck to the crank pulley. Something! Seat of the pants troubleshooting sucks, to say the least.
The only way these pumps "bypass" fuel is from the case pressure return check valve/spring. It regulates case pressure by returning fuel back to the fuel tank. It possible that this is stuck open, but not likely. More likely is that the pump is gummed up from sitting so long or you sucked in contaminents when you first tried to start it. The IP has an advance mechanism that is located on the bottom of the IP. It's prone to sticking after long sits. Stuff (water, contaminations, dirt....) all sinks and sticks in this area. If the advance mech is stuck, the engine injection will be retarded at higher rpms. It'll give you the same symptoms you're describing.
Basically, after sitting so long, that pump needs to be rebuilt. You also don't know what's been sucked into that IP recently. Buying a used one is Russian roulette: could work, maybe not. If you're going to keep the truck, just have the pump rebuilt so you know what you have. It'll be less frustrating in the end. You also need to to compression check the engine. Rust will form on an engine after sitting for so long and you could have scratched the cylinder walls when you started it. Or maybe the engine was worn out to begin with, and that's why it was parked. I don't know. The only info we have is from you.
Sounds like you're making progress. It can get frustrating at times when things aren't going right. That's why I recommend doing things right the first time. It makes it easier and better in the long run.
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 24, 2016 12:00:22 GMT -5
fatguppy I pulled the tank and got rid of all the lines, running a axuillary fuel tank and return system off the pump now, so there was not old fuel other than what had been sitting in the pump for years. I got the truck started on fresh fuel with diesel clean additive. I think you are right, it sounds like the timing advance is not working! Along with the pressure release valve inside being stuck open, fuel flows directly through it. Even with the return line blocked off and about 8psi of fuel pressure the pump still sputters at high rpm. how do you know what direction (up or down)the keyway on the ip shaft is so that when I pull the pump off it doesn't fall into the case? And what puller is the best to use?
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 24, 2016 12:09:21 GMT -5
fatguppy and no starting fuel at all, truck starts/ idles great. Great throttle response. Not smoke or haze until it starts sputtering and throws white smoke.
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 24, 2016 16:16:42 GMT -5
So I pulled the pump out. It's pretty rough.. IMG_4102.JPG IMG_4103.JPG IMG_4104.JPG
i guess it's time to wait for a good used one to show up for sale or rebuild. ?$$$
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Post by DieselDangerRanger on Apr 24, 2016 19:46:10 GMT -5
Would like to see those pictures that you tried to upload. I'm not sure what rough means. Vane can be rebuilt. Have you an idea of what was at issue and had it been tampered with? had you taken it to a pump guy to spin up? There is a good working pump in your future, no doubt.
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 24, 2016 21:28:27 GMT -5
DieselDangerRanger I did not notice anything other the metal intake fuel line to be very dirty inside (gummy/flakey). I didn't notice anything hung up. Or notice the higher rpm timing advance that fatguppy mentioned. If I had to guess, this pump is all grimy inside from sitting with old fuel in it. I haven't had it to a pump shop yet to have it checked over yet, I just pulled it off today. Any idea on a reasonable cost to have these pump rebuilt at a shop? Any shop recommendation/ or guys on here that rebuild them?
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Post by fatguppy on Apr 25, 2016 10:47:26 GMT -5
That is a dirty pump! But sounds like you have a healthy engine. Good. That's a plus.
The advance mechanism is internal. Those oval covers on the bottom of the pump, held on by 2 slot-head screws, contain the mechanism. Internal case pressure controls the advance of the injection pump. That might be why a more powerful, external fuel pump was able to provide just a little more fuel and pressure to help advance the timing.
If the griminess of the fuel pump is indicative of the previous owner's maintenance habits.....I'd say he/she didn't take care of that engine. You need a good rebuild!
The most I paid for a rebuild was about 8 years ago, a shop in Canada charged me $1100. The pump was basically brand new after that, but I'd say, barring any major wear, $500-600. Don't try to do this one yourself!
Where are you located?
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 25, 2016 14:01:11 GMT -5
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Post by rustyranger on Apr 30, 2016 21:16:58 GMT -5
so a few local shops in Maryland are giving quotes of 800-1100 to rebuild this pump, doest this seem legitimate?
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